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NADIA T. PUGGLESWORTH, III

Rescue puggle with a nose for news
Articles Posted: 6  Links Seeded: 163
Member Since: 6/2010  Last Seen: 4/26/2011

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Are Israel's Settlements Illegal under International Law?

Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:39 AM EST
world-news, israel, law, legal, human-rights, palestinians, west-bank, illegal, zionism, settlements, international-law, occupied-territories, palestinian-territories, setllers
By Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

Live Poll

Are Israel's Settlements Illegal under International Law?

View Results
  • 130171
    No
    42%
  • 130172
    Yes
    42%
  • 130173
    Maybe
    6%
  • 130174
    Some
    6%
  • 130175
    Don't Know/Not Sure
    3%

VoteTotal Votes: 33

Israeli settlement of Ofra

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The answer to this question is a reflexive, uncritical, prejudicial, resounding "YES!" for those who have a negative bias against Israel, Zionists, Jews, and the very existence of Israel as a self-ruled, independent state. For the rest of us who may be thoughtful, truly liberal, open minded persons, the question is not so cut and dry. The following are two excerpts from Wikipedia arguing the case that Israel's settlements are illegal under international law and the case that Israel's settlements are legal under international law.

The case for the illegality of Israel's settlements:

Illegality arguments

The International Court of Justice has accused Israel of breaching international law by establishing settlements in Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem. The Court maintains that Israel cannot rely on its right of self-defense or necessity to impose a regime that violates international law. The Court claims that Israel violates basic human rights by impeding liberty of movement and the inhabitants' right to work, health, education and an adequate standard of living.[50]

International intergovernmental organizations such as the Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention,[51] major organs of the United Nations,[52] the European Union, and Canada,[53] regard the settlements as a violation of international law. The Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination wrote that "The status of the settlements was clearly inconsistent with Article 3 of the Convention, which, as noted in the Committee's General Recommendation XIX, prohibited all forms of racial segregation in all countries. There is a consensus among publicists that the prohibition of racial discrimination, irrespective of territories, is an imperative norm of international law."[54] Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch have also characterized the settlements as a violation of international law. In 1978, the Legal Adviser of the Department of State reached the same conclusion.[55][56]

Under Israeli law, West Bank settlements must meet specific criteria to be legal. In 2009, there were approximately 100[8] small communities that did not meet these criteria and are referred to as illegal outposts.[56][57][58]

The case for the legality of Israel's settlements:

Legality arguments

Among the legal leading scholars who dispute this view is Stephen M. Schwebel. [59]Schwebel, a judge of International Court of Justice and Professor of International Law at Johns Hopkins University makes three distinctions specific to the Israeli situation that show the territories were seized in self-defense and thus Israel has more title to them than the previous holders. Professor Julius Stone also writes that "Israel's presence in all these [disputed] areas pending negotiation of new borders is entirely lawful, since Israel entered them lawfully in self-defense." [60]

Julius Stone referred to the absurdity of the claim that establishing settlements violate Article 49(6): "We would have to say that the effect of Article 49(6) is to impose an obligation on the State of Israel to ensure (by force if necessary) that these areas, despite their millennial association with Jewish life, shall be forever judenrein. Irony would thus be pushed to the absurdity of claiming that Article 49(6), designed to prevent repetition of Nazi-type genocidal policies of rendering Nazi metropolitan territories judenrein, has now come to mean that . . . the West Bank . . . must be made judenrein and must be so maintained, if necessary by the use of force by the government of Israel against its own inhabitants. Common sense as well as correct historical and functional context exclude so tyrannical a reading of Article 49(6)."[61]

Israel maintains that a temporary use of land and buildings for various purposes is permissible under a plea of military necessity and that the settlements fulfilled security needs.[62] In 1967, Theodor Meron, legal counsel to the Israeli Foreign Ministry stated in a legal opinion to Adi Yafeh, the Political Secretary of the Prime Minister, "My conclusion is that civilian settlement in the administered territories contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention."[63] The legal opinion, forwarded to Prime Minister Levi Eshkol, was not made public at the time, and the Labor cabinet progressively sanctioned settlements anyway; this action paved the way for future settlement growth. In 2007, Meron stated that "I believe that I would have given the same opinion today."[64]

Israel argues that its settlement policy is consistent with international law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention, while recognizing that some settlements have been constructed illegally on private land.[65] The Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that the power of the Civil Administration and the Military Commander in the occupied territories is limited by the entrenched customary rules of public international law as codified in the Hague Regulations and Geneva Convention IV.[66][67][68]

In 1998 the Israeli Minister of Foreign Affairs produced "The International Criminal Court Background Paper".[69] It concludes

    International law has long recognised that there are crimes of such severity they should be considered "international crimes." Such crimes have been established in treaties such as the Genocide Convention and the Geneva Conventions. .... The following are Israel's primary issues of concern [ie with the rules of the ICC]: - The inclusion of settlement activity as a "war crime" is a cynical attempt to abuse the Court for political ends. The implication that the transfer of civilian population to occupied territories can be classified as a crime equal in gravity to attacks on civilian population centres or mass murder is preposterous and has no basis in international law.

Israeli settlement

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  • Public Discussion (86)
Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

Here's where a lot of people remind everyone to follow the Code of Honor in their replies which I think is stupid and redundant since you implicitly agree to abide by the Code of Honor and User Agreement each and every time you log in to use this site.

  • 9 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:38 AM EST
aRTieA

Thanks for the reminder... :)

  • 7 votes
#1.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:42 AM EST
Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

I'm too clever for my own good. At least that's what people tell me. But what do they know?

:P

  • 5 votes
#1.2 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:03 AM EST
bonos_rama

Yes, they are illegal.

As to the C of H, aren't you the one always complaining on MY seeds about moderation? If you delete anything, you'll have to explain why it's okay for you to delete things and not for anyone else.

  • 7 votes
#1.3 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:14 AM EST
IndependentVoter

Yes, they are illegal.

Says who? The International Court of Justice ? LOL You do know their rulings are not binding...right? No legal effect.

  • 10 votes
#1.4 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:23 AM EST
California Militia

what international court has authority over a soverign nation.

if i were isreal and some court said this, I would issue warrants for the judges.

fiar is fair after all is it not?

  • 5 votes
#1.5 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:03 AM EST
worldcurmudgeon

The settlements are legal, there is no Palestine as a nation either in historical perspective nor in reality now, where is it? Is it run by Hamas or the PLO, or is it part of Jordan, or a full member of the Arab League? Actually, it is a puppet of Iran, no more than a vassal state of radical terrorism.

The UN is sham, a joke. What are they doing about the mass starvations, genocidal dictatorships in Africa, nothing like they did when there was anarchy and chaos in the Balkans.

  • 6 votes
#1.6 - Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:11 AM EST
krishna-167929

genocidal dictatorships in Africa,

The situation in Darfur is particularly horrendous.

  • 3 votes
#1.7 - Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:11 PM EST
Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

While on the topic of dictatorships in Africa, Mugabe's Zimbabwe is pretty bad and has been for years. Yet you don't see the Israel bashers on here even remotely voice their concern for "human rights" regarding nations whose human rights records are far worse than Israel's (which is in reality up there with the best in the world on human rights).

I wonder why that might be? I wonder if it could have anything to do with Israel's self identification as the "Jewish state?" /sarcasm

  • 3 votes
#1.8 - Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:13 PM EST
krishna-167929

Their willingness to constantly bash Israel over even the slightest alleged infraction-- yet their turning a blind eye towards human rights abuses when the victims are black might also be due, in many cases, to plain old fashioned racism.

  • 4 votes
#1.9 - Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:32 AM EST
Reply
true troyDeleted
true troyDeleted
aRTieA

The real is is disputed vs occupied land. If I am correct, the last legal holder of the land was Britain under the Palestinian Mandate.

The Arabs rejected the partition plan (UN Resolution 181) and initiated a war in violation of the UN Charter. The cease fire agreement gave control of Gaza to Egypt and Judea and Samaria (as well as the eastern part of Jerusalem to Jordan. Jordan Annexed Judea and Samaria as part of Jordan (thus the term West Bank being the west bank of Jordan) The annexation was not recognized (except by the United Kingdom). During the six day war, Israel drove the Jordanian occupiers out of Judea and Samaria (as well as the eastern part of Jerusalem).

  • 10 votes
Reply#4 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:51 AM EST
krishna-167929

The Arabs rejected the partition plan (UN Resolution 181) and initiated a war in violation of the UN Charter. The cease fire agreement gave control of Gaza to Egypt and Judea and Samaria (as well as the eastern part of Jerusalem to Jordan. Jordan Annexed Judea and Samaria as part of Jordan (thus the term West Bank being the west bank of Jordan) The annexation was not recognized (except by the United Kingdom). During the six day war, Israel drove the Jordanian occupiers out of Judea and Samaria (as well as the eastern part of Jerusalem).

Exactly.

Judea and Samaria (AKA 'the West Bank") was seized by force-- Jordan. They occupied it from 1948 'till 1967. (During that period the population of the area lived under "Occupation"-- by Jordan!). Jordan later ended the status of "occupation" and actually annexed it.

Egypt seized Gaza by force and occupied it. The people of Gaza lived under Egyptian occupation for years...

  • 4 votes
#4.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:15 PM EST
krishna-167929

as well as the eastern part of Jerusalem t

During the Jordanian occupation of Jerusalem, all religions did not have free access to their Holy places...in fact Jordan destroyed many of them. Its wasn't until Jerusalem was liberated by Israel that all religions had free access top their holy sites..and, in fact, that has continued to the present.

  • 6 votes
#4.2 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:16 PM EST
worldcurmudgeon

The British, in all their pomposity, drew an arbitrary line in the sand and divvied out land which previously had been ruled by the Ottoman Empire to Arab Kings and dictators as a way to protect their access to oil supplies. The Jews were promised lands of which the promises were broken.

Once the promise was broken, I consider it open territory, and if the Jews had the temerity to grab it, fend for themselves, and defend it to establish a homeland then so be it. After all, they had nothing handed to them as the Saudi, Jordanian, Syrian, and Lebanese. They did it the hard way, and have been punished for it ever since.

  • 5 votes
#4.3 - Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:16 AM EST
Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

I concur. British cartographers arbitrarily carved up the areas known today as Jordan, Israel, Kuwait, and Iraq without regard to nationality, ethnicity, tribal or clan affinity, or any other factor that may be used to determine identity by nation. They are largely responsible for a lot of the problems today that have resulted from their arbitrarily drawn borders.

  • 5 votes
#4.4 - Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:58 AM EST
ChiCity

Worldcurmudgeon, do you really believe that Israel, "had nothing handed to them"? Without the British, in all their pomposity, do you think that Israel, as a state, would exist at all?

Again, this is not meant to be incendiary. I am curious as to your explanation of how Israel would have been founded if not given land?

  • 1 vote
#4.5 - Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:41 AM EST
Reply
DBE928

They are absolutely not illegal and this whole ""illegal settlements" meme was dreamed up by anti-Israel activists. It's a red herring to avoid discussion of the Palestinians'constant war against Israel and their refusal to enter into meaningful peace discussions.

  • 8 votes
Reply#5 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:54 AM EST
true troyDeleted
Veritas 1234

DBE:

Oh right.

and the entire U.N. is wrong.

gimme a break

    #5.2 - Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:51 PM EST
    ChiCity

    DBE, do you really believe that? So every President since 1967, and other members of the UN security council, who say that one of the largest issues preventing a meaningful conversation about peace is the settlements, are all just anti-semitic and wrong? Israel is blatantly trying to change the "facts on the ground" to benefit any future territory when Palestine is declared a sovereign state.

    http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=200553

    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=200480

      #5.3 - Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:59 PM EST
      krishna-167929

      and the entire U.N. is wrong.

      No--Not all of it-- only about 90% of it is wrong!

      • 2 votes
      #5.4 - Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:12 PM EST
      Reply
      true troyDeleted
      asrcfdstfgdDeleted
      true troyDeleted
      true troyDeleted
      samenslow

      The settlements can not be considered illegal until the Arabs recognize the UN resolution that created the State of Israel. What follows from any court or future UN Resolutions are based on that first resolution. Something that doesn't exist cannot do something illegal.

      That said, I believe the settlements are stupid. But then, the Palestinians have not acted as geniuses either.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#10 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:26 AM EST
      krishna-167929

      But then, the Palestinians have not acted as geniuses either.

      Actually they had several opportunities to have a new country ("Palestine") created-- but they turned it down each time because they refused even the slightest compromise-- they wanted it all, including Israel.

      See, for example: Olmert reportedly offers 98.1% of West Bank to Palestinians (scroll down for updated link)

      • 5 votes
      #10.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:09 PM EST
      Reply
      Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

      Not sure what happened to "true troy" and all the comments. I didn't delete them.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#11 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:32 PM EST
      ChiCity

      Did you delete my comments?

      • 1 vote
      #11.1 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:53 PM EST
      Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

      No. What happens is when a comment is removed, all replies to that comment are also removed automatically. Either "true troy" deleted his account or the staff did it for him. That's the only way comments suddenly vanish 'round these parts.

      • 4 votes
      #11.2 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:27 PM EST
      Reply
      ChiCity

      That's too bad.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#12 - Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:28 PM EST
      Kevin Mirek

      Yes, the settlements are legal. Who will force the Israelis to move? If there is an entity to accomplish that, then the settlements might be illegal. Military power makes the law legal.

      • 5 votes
      #13 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:08 AM EST
      ChiCity

      Ahhh, might makes right. Such a tragic way to think.

      • 3 votes
      #13.1 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:18 AM EST
      Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

      Don't forget about the actual Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.

      Fair is a nice concept but where does it say anywhere what an absolute right is or what is absolutely right or wrong or that life is fair or that fairness is even desirable or possible given reality? One person's sensie of right, fair, etc. is another's wrong, unfair, etc.

      It's impossible to qualify or quantify what's right, wrong, fair, unfair, etc. in absolute terms for all parties concerned when competing interests are involved. This is why society has established laws, judicial systems, and enforcement arms in order to keep society functioning. The law doesn't necessarily establish fairness or equality, it simply establishes rules by which all parties are bound to act in order for society to function normally as defined by what that particular sovereign state defines as "normal."

      • 4 votes
      #13.2 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:55 AM EST
      ChiCity

      Laws should be formed to serve justice. Nadia, you make an interesting point, and we could philosophize about the history and purpose of law until we are blue in the face. However, the might makes right argument is never a good argument. Historically it has been used to inflict some of the most heinous crimes in history (Roman Empire, WWII,...).

      • 3 votes
      #13.3 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:13 AM EST
      Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

      Define justice and who gets to determine what it means.

      • 4 votes
      #13.4 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:06 PM EST
      ChiCity

      I took full semester classes on the definition of justice, and we still couldn't come to a consensus. From Plato to Rawls to Mill, and so on, there is no one definition. I view justice, in its simplest definition, as related to the concept of fairness. I recognize this is a more modern, and western view, but that is the basis for justice IMO.

      • 3 votes
      #13.5 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:16 PM EST
      Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

      See? That's my point. The whole concept of "rights" as we understand them today didn't exist until the classical liberals John Locke et al. made such a big deal out them. In fact, the U.S. remains the only nation in existence in all of history including the present day that has established in the first ten amendments (aka The Bill of Rights) of its constitution what an individual's inalienable rights are under law.

      • 4 votes
      #13.6 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:22 PM EST
      ChiCity

      Is that a bad thing? What do you think of the fact that Israel still doesn't have a constitution? According to the Jewish Virtual Library, " Israel does not have a written constitution, even though according to the Proclamation of Independence a constituent assembly should have prepared a constitution by October 1, 1948. The delay in the preparation of a constitution resulted primarily from problems that emerged against the background of the alleged clash between a secular constitution and the Halacha (the Jewish religious law)."

      Do you concede that this provides large grey areas in the laws of Israel?

      • 3 votes
      #13.7 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:34 PM EST
      aRTieA

      Do you concede that this provides large grey areas in the laws of Israel?

      No being an Israeli attorney, this is an impossible question to answer . You are speculating cause and effect.

      But you can go to this link and analyze it.

      http://www.llrx.com/features/israel.htm

      • 4 votes
      #13.8 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:40 PM EST
      ChiCity

      It was a bit of a rhetorical question. Of course it creates large grey areas. The debate within Israel is whether a constitution could come to violate "god's laws" as written in the Torah. In the articles of independence, which dealt with human rights, right of return, etc. , the Israeli supreme court said that anything written in these articles cannot be considered supreme law...

      "There were those who were inclined to view the Proclamation of Independence as a constitution, since it dealt with the foundations of the establishment of the state, its nature, part of its institutions, the principles of its operation and the rights of its citizens. However, in a series of decisions the Supreme Court ruled that the Proclamation of Independence does not have the validity of a constitutional law, and that it is not a supreme law, in light of which laws and regulations that contradict it are nullified."

      One does not need to be a lawyer to recognize that Israel's lack of constitution allows them more freedom in dealing with their affairs without the pesky rule of law to hold them accountable. The constitution was supposed to deal with human rights, right of return, etc. By not having one, for over 60 years now, they are not accountable to anything but "the supreme law". There is no speculation here, as many ultra religous Israelis throughout their existence have said as much.

      • 3 votes
      #13.9 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:56 PM EST
      Kevin Mirek

      It is their country, and you should not get all indignant and stuff when they do things their way. Stay here, get a Bill of Rights; go there and get shot in the face. Their way of dealing with terrorists and dissidents.

      • 3 votes
      #13.10 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:57 PM EST
      ChiCity

      It is in direct contradiction to the principles under which it was founded. I often hear people in these rooms say, "Israel is the only democracy in the middle east". They should act like one. That is not indignant, it is in keeping with the agreement in the formation of the country. 60 years is more than enough time to draft and approve a constitution. However, the ultra religous sect in Israel that weilds tremendous power is against any laws that supersede "god's laws".

      • 1 vote
      #13.11 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:09 PM EST
      aRTieA

      So what is your real point. Israel is a democracy. Israel has a legal system. Legal systems work on precedents.

      http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles/const-intro-93.htm

      Although Israel does not have a single complete constitutional document, in its forty-five years of statehood the Jewish state has developed an operative constitution of its own, embodied in a set of written texts that reflect the political system on which the state is based, its social content, and an expanding constitutional tradition. Those texts were properly promulgated by the representatives of the people and recognized as constitutional by Israel's Supreme Court. The texts are collected and presented here for what they are -- Israel's operative constitution that determines the basic operations of the Israeli polity, the basic rules of governance enforced by those empowered to execute and enforce the law and, as such, interpreted by the courts as a constitution.

      The US doesn't have true democracy when it takes 60 votes in the senate to pass a bill.

      • 2 votes
      #13.12 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:27 PM EST
      Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

      The Senate was designed in the constitution to slow down the legislative process so that nothing rash is done. That's why the rules require 60 votes and the filibuster was invented. They're both designed to guarantee that a simple majority doesn't run roughshod over the rights of the minority using procedure and a simple majority vote.

      So, in a way, it is more of a true democracy than a "true democracy" by which I take it you mean an Athenian style democracy. Look where that got Athens. It's no accident the founding fathers chose the Roman representative republic model of democracy over the Athenian version to avoid a free for all.

      • 2 votes
      #13.13 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:53 PM EST
      ChiCity

      In 7.9 I posted a quote that says any of those laws that are contrary to the "supreme law" are nullified. They don't have a constitution because those in power can't agree on the laws. It comes back to the religiosity of the state, and which laws are supreme.

      • 1 vote
      #13.14 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:06 PM EST
      krishna-167929

      Is that a bad thing? What do you think of the fact that Israel still doesn't have a constitution?

      ChiCity-- What do you think of the fact that Britain doesn't have a constitution either?

      • 3 votes
      #13.15 - Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:14 PM EST
      Reply
      larrrs

      Of course the Israeli settlements are legal. To equate them as a "war crime", and on footing with Palestinian bombings, is ridiculous to say the least.

      • 4 votes
      Reply#14 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:15 AM EST
      ChiCity

      Well Larrrs, some might not think it is so ridiculous. One might look at how many have been negatively affected on each side and draw a different conclusion.

      • 2 votes
      #14.1 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:21 AM EST
      Gina-789277

      Right, some who are infested with the hatred of Jews might find every excuse in the book to paint Israel in a negative light, but when you look clearly at the history of the region and the chain of events that took place there over time, its very ridiculous. Israel has flourished under the "evil zionist" occupation. It was nothing but barren desert and swamps before high tech, medicine, stock exchange, night clubs, shopping centers, universities and communities took shape. If the arabs want to complain about how unfair Israel is, let them go live in Iran or Saudi Arabia. I'm sure there they will get the "fair treatment" they so deserve.

      • 2 votes
      #14.2 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:20 PM EST
      ChiCity

      Gina, the knee jerk reaction to call everyone who is critical of Israeli policy is tired. It has worked for so long, because no one wants to be called an anti-semite. That argument is quickly losing steam. Just read the local Israeli papers. Many Israeli's feel the same way. I venture to say you wouldn't call them Jew-haters?

      http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/mr-prime-minister-douse-the-flames-of-racism-1.331565

      Many more inside Israel are becoming more vocal about their opposition to the current Israeli policies, and the direction it is taking the country. But, if like most Americans, you want to call people anti-semitic for being critical of Israel, that is your right.

      I remember reading "Night" by Elie Weisel when I was in 6th grade. Attending a mostly Jewish school, I became very interested in the conflict in Israel (I graduated high school in '97). I read many books about WWII, Israel's formation, the 6 days war, etc. My sympathies were entirely toward the Israeli's. After high school, I went to college, and majored in political science with an emphasis on middle eastern politics. My sympathies remained with the Israeli's. Since the second intifada, my opinion has changed. In the last 4 or 5 years the situation has changed, and my opinion with it as well.

      • 1 vote
      #14.3 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:44 PM EST
      Reply
      Hippocrates of Cos

      Professor Julius Stone also writes that "Israel's presence in all these [disputed] areas pending negotiation of new borders is entirely lawful, since Israel entered them lawfully in self-defense

      This professor must have forgotten that Israel attacked first in 1967, so it can't be called self-defense. Only blind supporters of Israel equate Attacking first as self-defense!

      • 4 votes
      Reply#15 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:26 AM EST
      krishna-167929

      Israel attacked first in 1967,

      Source?

      • 5 votes
      #15.1 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:57 AM EST
      ChiCity

      Jewish Virtual Library, "A combination of bellicose Arab rhetoric, threatening behavior and, ultimately, an act of war left Israel no choice but preemptive action. To do this successfully, Israel needed the element of surprise. Had it waited for an Arab invasion, Israel would have been at a potentially catastrophic disadvantage.".

      At the end of the day it is semantics, and people will be able to make effective arguments on both sides. Israel used preemptive action claiming self defense. This argument will never be settled because depending on your definition of attack, the case can be made for both sides.

      • 2 votes
      #15.2 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:16 AM EST
      Reply
      Kevin Mirek

      Hippo,

      You are wrong!

      • 4 votes
      Reply#16 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:50 AM EST
      aRTieA

      Yup, he is wrong. The Arabs were massing their forces for a coordinated attack against Israel. That constitutes an act of war. If someone is pointing a gun at me, I have a right to defend myself up to the use of deadly force.

      • 4 votes
      #16.1 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:31 AM EST
      Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

      Not to mention that after the Six Days War of 1967 in which Israel attained the territories of Gaza and the West Bank and Sinai, Israel attempted to give back all of them but Nasser and the Arab League refused to talk with Israel and instead Nasser declared the infamous "Three No's" of Khartoum.

      The reality is that the Palestinians have refused and continue to refuse every land deal offered them while insisting they have the legal right of "resistance" (i.e., terrorism) against Israel.

      • 4 votes
      #16.2 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:22 AM EST
      Hippocrates of Cos

      Kevin Mirek you are wrong, Isreal attacked first that is a FACT

      aRTieA, Israel was massing forces on their borders which Directly led to Arabs doing the same. Then Israel Attacked First. But I guess you want to rewrite history to make Israel to be a victim...

      • 2 votes
      #16.3 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:38 PM EST
      Reply
      Manic Drummer

      If they are, then so are all the neighborhoods in the US and Canada that aren't on reservations.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#17 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:48 PM EST
      Kevin Mirek

      Manic,

      Ah, but there's the enforcement thing again. He who has the power makes the rules.

      • 2 votes
      #17.1 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:39 PM EST
      aRTieA

      Do the Indians have a right of return? <sarcasm>

      • 3 votes
      #17.2 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:29 PM EST
      Kevin Mirek

      artiea:

      Yes.

      A million man standing army, a kick-ass air force, and a big navy will be required to "secure" that right of return.

      • 2 votes
      #17.3 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:43 PM EST
      krishna-167929

      Do the Indians have a right of return?

      Perhaps Israel should kick all the Jews out of the eastern part of Jerusalem and give it to the Arabs as the capital of a new Palestinian state.

      But--- only after the U.S. evicts all non-Native Americans from part of Washington and gives it to Native Americans as the capital of a new state to be created for them.

      (I say we give them the South East).

      • 3 votes
      #17.4 - Mon Jan 3, 2011 9:39 PM EST
      Reply
      David-1830107

      Are Hamas Rockets Illegally being shot at Israelis....A resounding YES
      Are Palestinians the largest group of child abusers....A resounding YES
      Did Palestinians Dance in the streets when 3k americans Died on 9/11...A resounding YES

      F them period.

      • 4 votes
      Reply#18 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:07 PM EST
      Gina-789277

      Amen. I wish more were as enlightened as you, unfortunately they STUPIDLY blame Israel for radical Islamist hate towards big satan AKA the US.

      FOOLS

      • 4 votes
      #18.1 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:22 PM EST
      Kevin Mirek

      David,

      Hell yes to that! These people cheer the "Heroes of Munich."

      • 3 votes
      #18.2 - Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:35 PM EST
      Reply
      Veritas 1234Deleted
      wetryrDeleted
      Fractal InsightDeleted
      Veritas 1234

      all israeli settlements are illegal under international law

      the U.N. says so and it is a fact

        Reply#22 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:25 PM EST
        aRTieA

        Prove it....

        Because what you are saying is not true.

        http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Israeli+Settlements+and+International+Law.htm

        • 3 votes
        #22.1 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:43 PM EST
        Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

        So, is everything the U.N. says "fact" in your world?

        • 4 votes
        #22.2 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:46 PM EST
        krishna-167929

        the U.N. says so and it is a fact

        Nope.

        Not true

        • 4 votes
        #22.3 - Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:57 PM EST
        Nadia T. Pugglesworth, III

        I've noticed a trend amongst Palestinian supporters to generally speak in wide sweeping blanket generalizations whose intent is to injure, harm, and delegitimize Israel, Zionism, and other entities associated with Judaism. I wonder what might be the motivating force behind it? /sarcasm

        • 4 votes
        #22.4 - Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:07 AM EST
        krishna-167929

        I've noticed a trend amongst Palestinian supporters to generally speak in wide sweeping blanket generalizations whose intent is to injure, harm, and delegitimize Israel, Zionism, and other entities associated with Judaism. I wonder what might be the motivating force behind it? /sarcasm

        Golly gee-- I can't imagine...

        • 4 votes
        #22.5 - Sun Jan 2, 2011 10:00 PM EST
        aRTieA

        I wonder what might be the motivating force behind it?

        He whose name cannot be spoken...

        • 2 votes
        #22.6 - Sun Jan 2, 2011 10:38 PM EST
        krishna-167929

        He whose name cannot be spoken...

        Borat?

        • 2 votes
        #22.7 - Mon Jan 3, 2011 9:30 PM EST
        krishna-167929

        He whose name cannot be spoken...

        Borat?

        Borat? Is he really back-- has he really re-reged on NV?

        OMG!!!

        Quick-- we need a meta article about this!

        • 2 votes
        #22.8 - Mon Jan 3, 2011 9:32 PM EST
        Reply
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